30 June 20:50

Discussion with Anders Sandberg, Arjen Kamphuis and director Titus Nachbauer during the Keep an Eye Filmacademie Festival where TRANSHUMAN was released.

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[20:50] ChanServ changed topic to: THIS CHATROOM OPENS thursday 30 June 2011 at 21:00 with Anders Sandberg. topics: TRANSHUMAN documentary, transhumanism, futurism

[20:50] ! titusn is the founder of this room.

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[20:55] titusn: Arjen

[20:56] titusn: Hello!

[20:56] titusn: Welcome in the chat

[20:56] Arjen: Hi there!

[20:56] anderss: Hi!

[20:57] titusn: we are here at the netherlands film and television academy to talk about TRANSHUMAN

[20:57] titusn: we have four guest sitting in here

[20:57] titusn: and we expect more people from the internet

[20:57] Arjen: Just tweeted the chat and location

[20:58] titusn: I am discussing the first question

[20:58] titusn: The first question from the audience is:

[20:59] titusn: You have seedbanks right now.

[20:59] titusn: What would we have to do to make a bank where one could store human minds

[20:59] titusn: ?

[20:59] anderss: Great question. First step would of course be to figure out how to store minds in the first place.

[21:00] anderss: Right now we have things like the Allen Brain project, but that gives us just limited information. With full brain emulation we would get real mind files.

[21:00] anderss: But the challenge is: how much space do they need?

[21:01] anderss: My guess is that a mind could be stored in a few hundred terabytes. In that case we already have datacenters large enough. But they might not be stable enough.

[21:01] anderss: I would like to find some really solid storage.

[21:01] Arjen: And how do you keep the data secure and with integrity over longer timespans

[21:01] Arjen: We've never solved that probelem for terabyte files

[21:02] anderss: Keeping data stable is hard - when data is easy to process it is also volatile. And the economics of storage means that people underinvest in long term storage.

[21:02] anderss: Some big astronomy projects already have problems with saving their files after the end - lots of science data can be threatened.

[21:03] Arjen: CERN had this problem also in the late '80's.

[21:03] Arjen: Inventing the Interweb helped ;-)

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[21:03] anderss: Even worse for projects that end. A few years afterwards there is no funding, few experts on the format and nobody deeply invested in the project.

[21:04] anderss: Maybe we should store minds at central libraries?

[21:04] anderss: Like our books and other media.

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[21:04] Arjen: Most of our digital formats (hardware and file-types) only last a few decades, need to get better at sustainable archiving

[21:05] paddy: Hi there, I saw the docu last sunday... and I had a litte question

[21:05] Arjen: Libraries know a lot about the long-term stoage problem

[21:05] Arjen: Just nof for exa-byte of data

[21:05] Arjen: What's your Q paddy?

[21:05] titusn: From the audience: it would be great to be able 'lend' someones mind for a minute to be able to see things their way!

[21:05] titusn: Hallo paddy!

[21:05] titusn: Welcome

[21:06] paddy: In the docu you mention the doubling of knowledge, how is it measured?

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[21:06] titusn: that's a question for Arjen

[21:06] Arjen: Number of technical/scientific publications

[21:06] anderss: You can measure how much information there is, but how much knowledge that represents is hard to guess. Not all papers are good ones.

[21:07] Arjen: But not all papers were good 40 years ago ;-)

[21:07] paddy: ah... thanks!

[21:07] Arjen: Unless the ratio is changing it is somewhat of an indicator

[21:07] anderss: In fact, the number of *important* papers or ideas are fairly small. One project we hope to do is measure some of the growth of the important stuff. Check if it is doubling.

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[21:07] paddy: But how does old inventions fit into this?

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[21:08] paddy: Whit old inventions I mean the wheel for example

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[21:08] anderss: Many inventrions are stepping stones to better inventions. Newcombes steam engine was lousy, but got Watt to make a better one.

[21:08] Arjen: In the time if the invention of the wheel things moved almost slow beyond measure compared to today.

[21:09] anderss: You can also look at how much you can produce for a given amount of money and work, and see how that improves over time. Japanese beer has its own doubling rate!

[21:09] Arjen: Soon we will be swimming in beer! yay!

[21:09] tenj: hello.

[21:09] paddy: funny but interesting thought!

[21:10] anderss: If you plot the big inventions over time they seem to happen faster and faster - but determining the important ones is trickier when they are recent.

[21:10] Arjen: Hindsight in 20-20 ;-)

[21:11] anderss: Getting unbiased hindsight is likely as hard as getting foresight worth anything.

[21:12] Arjen: Yes, but how to know if something is biased?

[21:12] titusn: hello all newcomers, welcome to the chat

[21:12] anderss: To debias things you need at least test examples you can compare to. History is nasty because we only have one of it.

[21:13] titusn changed topic to: Chat with Anders Sandberg and Arjen Kamphuis topics: TRANSHUMAN documentary, transhumanism, futurism

[21:14] paddy: Did you also think about some kind of awareness that can grow on the internet?

[21:14] titusn changed topic to: Chat with Anders Sandberg and Arjen Kamphuis topics: TRANSHUMAN documentary, transhumanism, futurism

[21:14] anderss: I have thought about it, and it is hard to say. There is the collective mind of all of us, of course. Maybe that could become really smart with the right tools.

[21:14] titusn: let's move to the next question.

[21:14] tenj: first of all congratulations on the documentary. it is thoughtprovoking. do you agree on the qoute that within 18 month the total amount of knowledge will doubled

[21:15] anderss: Then there is the possibility that the Internet, the machine/software, could become smart. I think it is unlikely because thinking requires rather special programs and structure (otyherwise we would have solved it a long time ago).

[21:15] paddy: okay...

[21:16] anderss: Tenj: I think overall knowledge doubles every 18 months or so, but the world-changing, important knowledge jumps more irregularly.

[21:16] Arjen: I could be wrong about the 18 montsh, it could also be 16. Or 14. Whatever the period is. Its shrinking

[21:17] anderss: I don't know if it is shrinking or not. We are gathering more and more data faster and faster, but data is not knowledge - it needs to tell us something important.

[21:17] Arjen: Think about what this means for 4-5 year educational programs in technical fields

[21:17] anderss: Most education is obsolete before you graduate.

[21:17] paddy: Is the doubling maybe related to amount of people combined with wealth?

[21:17] anderss: This is why we need to learn how to learn.

[21:17] Arjen: My point exacly. Better to learn to think. That never goes out of style

[21:18] anderss: Yes, more people with more gadgets/science/projects produce more knowledge.

[21:18] Arjen: Also just more people globally

[21:18] Arjen: More mouths to feed but also more brains to think

[21:18] anderss: Economists often model the growth of knowledge by a combination of capital, people and technology. Tech is of course increased by knowledge, so their models easily gets singularities.

[21:19] titusn: Can we agree that the big view is: the doubling of knowledge rougly follows Moore's law of doubling computer power?

[21:19] tenj: true. i really dropped science and astronomics after school since internet its back

[21:19] anderss: I think knowledge grew before computers too. But the dynamics is probably similar.

[21:19] paddy: What do you think shall be different or new in computers to store minds?

[21:20] anderss: I think generap purpose computers are likely not ideal for running minds. Special purpose computers can likely be 10-100 times more efficient (energy, speed etc) so they might be more like parallel processors/graphics cards.

[21:20] Arjen: Those systems would have to be order of magnitude more efficiant than what we have now

[21:20] anderss: Heat is a problem in big computers, and has to be solved before we can get close to storing minds.

[21:21] tenj: Do you think a stored mind would still experience emotions?

[21:21] anderss: Yes, I think a brain emuklation would have emotions. Otherwise it would not be an emulation.

[21:21] Arjen: If not what's the point? ;-)

[21:21] anderss: However, emotions often have a body component, so you need to simulate the body well enough.

[21:21] titusn: and in addition to that, is your idea that artificial brains will function in the real world or separate from it?

[21:22] Arjen: WIthout a (simulated) body a human mids would probably go insane

[21:22] paddy: Maybe the smallest building stones should also be completely different than just NOT or IF statements?

[21:22] anderss: I think most people will want to interact with the real world, perhaps using an android body. But there are many delights in purely virtual worlds.

[21:23] Arjen: @Paddy it is uite possible that we will need to invent a while new computercience

[21:23] anderss: I think a brain emulation computer might be quite different from current ones. There is for example the Spinnacker project at Manchester, that uses a very different processor style.

[21:23] Arjen: New hardware, programming language, software tools, storage, memory..

[21:23] anderss: We are already struggling with how to use multicore processors. Humans are not good at thinking in parallell.

[21:24] Arjen: The step required might be as big as the step from vacuum tubes to microchips

[21:24] tenj: Would a stored mind still feel related to other people/relatives? And thus miss people or need campany?

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[21:24] anderss: I think software minds will want company.

[21:25] anderss: In fact, one big problem might be keepuing in normal social contact with your friends running on different speed or in the real world.

[21:25] tenj: exactly

[21:25] Arjen: Assuming the uplaod is faster ;-)

[21:25] paddy: Aint it so that a human mind requires input at all time?

[21:25] titusn: welcome Next!

[21:25] anderss: The first upload will likely be sloooow. But I have simulated a bit of scenarios, and it looks like they could become very fast quickly (think Moores law)

[21:26] Arjen: Not all the time but most of the time (when awake)

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[21:26] anderss: Yes, the human mind needs input - otherwise we fall asleep or go mad. So you need a simulated body and something to experience.

[21:26] tenj: what about dreams

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[21:27] tenj: is it input or output?

[21:27] anderss: I think dreams are fairly low-level neural activities that should happen naturally if the emulation functions. Some research today already prodyuce dreamlike states in simulated neural networks.

[21:27] paddy: maybe both input and output

[21:28] anderss: Dreams are generated inside our brains, a kind of random signal that then triggers visions in the rest of the brain and we react to. A kind of internally started perception/action.

[21:28] anderss: Google PGO waves for the neuroscience.

[21:28] Arjen: If you could control your dream that would be nice entertainment for an upload

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[21:28] tenj: i want that! lol

[21:29] anderss: I have tried lucid dreaming, and while it is nice to hijack nightmares I think it would be a bit boring to always dream what you wanted.

[21:29] tenj: all these movie-scenarios pass by: Matrix, inception.. lol

[21:29] Arjen: You would have to set yourself challenges and not cheat. that ruins any game

[21:29] anderss: I loved how the dreamworlds in inception were faster than real life. That is not really true in dreams, but it should be.

[21:30] titusn: Hi dwangmatig!

[21:30] tenj: in lucid dreams i always end up with what i don't want

[21:30] vanVuuren: Having lucid dreams creates a whole new game... a very awesome sandbox game

[21:30] titusn: audience: What would a 'get drunk' plugin cost?

[21:30] paddy: I liked the docu! Is it or will it be available on the internet?

[21:31] anderss: A get drunk plugin would likely be easy to program - open some chloride channels, modify a few GABA channels. I think basic drunkenness would be simple. Maybe an opensource program?

[21:31] Arjen: @Paddy, eventually *everyting* gets on the Internet

[21:31] Next: i think we already can simulate some theories [mechanisms] of dreaming, Freud's for example.

[21:31] anderss: Then people can debate whether the Ubunty drunkenness is better than the proprietary Microsoft intoxication.

[21:31] tenj: haha

[21:32] titusn: paddy: actually TRANSHUMAN will be the first academy film that will be viewable in HD officially!

[21:32] anderss: The cool thing is that you could make *better* forms of being drunk. Leaving out the addiction, for example. And getting sober when you wanted or needed.

[21:32] tenj: applebeer

[21:32] titusn: But we will take some time for that...

[21:32] titusn: Paddy: We are showing the film on Dutch television in november, though.

[21:32] anderss: Of course, finetuning the simulated tastes of wines and beers will be a major issue. That is harder than making brains drunk.

[21:32] paddy: great :-)

[21:32] dwangmatig: i'm reading a novel that explores this idea: www.amazon.com/Permutation-City-Greg-Egan/dp/006105481X

[21:33] anderss: Ah, Greg Egan has plenty of great novels. I especially like Diaspora.

[21:33] titusn: dwangmatig: the idea of beint artificially drunk?

[21:33] titusn: beint = being

[21:34] Arjen: Egan's book was one of the inputs for the Matrix movies

[21:34] dwangmatig: well, the idea of having virtual booze that does just about anything that you want it to. (i'm only halfway though)

[21:34] tenj: do you think we will be able to live in a no lineair time

[21:34] anderss: Virtual booze could also have very strange effects - everything from LSD to world of warcraft.

[21:35] anderss: I think one could at least speed up and slow down easily. The *weird* part will be when you can copy yourself and merge again - very hard, but oh so useful.

[21:35] paddy: So we have to invent a processor that depents on chemicals or so...

[21:35] titusn: audience: What to do with your private thoughts when you're an upload?

[21:36] Arjen: I's encrypt them

[21:36] anderss: Privacy is a bit like it is online: make sure your sysop/ISP doesn't spy on you. I would be *very* careful in who I allow to run my mind.

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[21:36] dwangmatig: the private thoughts maybe private for other inhabitants of the virtual world, but not for the minds inhabiting the real world.

[21:36] Arjen: Opensource softeware only! ;-)

[21:36] tenj: yes, how about safeguards?

[21:36] anderss: Encrypted brains sounds like a good idea. And lots of backups, and perhaps privacy certificiation.

[21:36] Next: i don't understand why we need artificially constructed biological feelings if we upload ourselves, i mean it's such a Radical transformation of living that why should our "past" biological feelings will matter at all?do butterflies repeat the lifestyle of worms?

[21:36] anderss: Good point.

[21:37] anderss: The reason is that our current brains are not very good at thinking without them. We need time to adapt and figure out updates.

[21:37] Arjen: But without the driving force of emotions, whats the point of existing at all

[21:37] anderss: I would love to change some of my emotions, but I want to have backups before I try.

[21:38] anderss: We can refine emotions, get rid of cruelty and add a "do you really want to do that?" safeguard to aggression, while trying to invent something better than love.

[21:38] Arjen: Our motivations to do anyhting is pretty tied up with emotions

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[21:38] paddy: I think all our thoughts eventually have one goal: surviving... in other words: eating and reproducing

[21:38] anderss: Emotions are used to determine what is good or bad in our decisions. People with damage to the emotional systems make stupid decisions.

[21:38] paddy: ....did you think about that?

[21:39] dwangmatig: i think you need some restrictions to grow a mind. a mind grown in our real world must, i think, have the same restraints in the virtual worlds as in the real world. or else it will cease to exist or degenerate

[21:39] anderss: We might have started as pure survival machines, but we can change ourselves into what we want. We don't have to obey past evolution.

[21:39] paddy: But doesn't the mind need a goal?

[21:39] anderss: Figuring out how to stay sane in a virtual world is important. We will likely discover a lot of weird problems when we start living there.

[21:40] titusn: if we go fully digital, who will maintain our servers?

[21:40] tenj: like what?

[21:40] anderss: My genes might have the goal of having lots of grandchildren, but I see no point in raising a big family - I want to do things with my life that benefit my current mind.

[21:40] Arjen: @Titus a jainitor

[21:41] anderss: I think there will always be people who want to be "real". One could also work by downloading or running a robot.

[21:41] dwangmatig: i can assure you that having children benefits your mind ;)

[21:41] Arjen: @Anders but if a gorgous womes would grab you it would be difficult to ignore the desires of your genes

[21:41] anderss: I am cheating on children: I get to be uncle for my brothers kids. Lots of fun, but no diaper changes.

[21:41] dwangmatig: well played!

[21:42] titusn: @Arjen or gorgeous man of cours, we're Dutch and impartial here ;-)

[21:42] anderss: We'll see - I think I am stronger tham my genes. Just ask my boyfriend.

[21:42] tenj: ;-)

[21:42] dwangmatig: ah, but still you could employ a willing womb...

[21:43] anderss: Of course, my genes would swtill argue if they could that they built my mind. It is just a bit defective.

[21:43] anderss: I think having children is more than just genetics. You need to be around for them, partially to convey your memes, and that is a big effort.

[21:43] paddy: Talking about genes... mutations are probably welcome within the processor or program or whatever the mindmachine will look like

[21:44] Arjen: A limited amount of mutations. Not to much too fast

[21:44] paddy: so maybe minds should be combined from time to time... like combining genes ;-)

[21:44] anderss: Brains seem to be good at handling small random errors to produce creative diversity.

[21:44] dwangmatig: @ paddy, you may be right i can imagine there must be some degree of randomness to have a creative living system

[21:44] titusn: Can we agree that "digital life" will just be another addition to "normal life", not something that would neccessarily replace it?

[21:44] anderss: We need to keep our minds young and avoid stagnation. Recombination, occasional rejuvenations, and of course a lot of experience.

[21:44] Arjen: Depends on the circumstances

[21:45] anderss: Yes, digital life will be a new enormous dimension added to real life, but the real world will still be there.

[21:45] tenj: do you think gouvernements around the world are peparing for this step

[21:45] anderss: To many virtual life will be useful for exploring the real world. Think of going to space, or changing speed to keep up with it.

[21:45] Arjen: @titus, we may move online because there is no other choice earth detroyed or something)

[21:46] anderss: I think governments right now have no clue. That may change in a few years.

[21:46] tenj: why not?

[21:46] anderss: We are a bit worried here at FHI about arms races if governments compete with getting emulations first.

[21:46] tenj: true

[21:46] Arjen: It takes governmenrts usually 10-20 years to figure out something new

[21:46] Next: what about servers?:]who'll hold them

[21:46] anderss: When science produces good simulations, say of a mouse, then a lot of people will get convicned it can be done and rush in.

[21:47] Arjen: @next someone you *really* trust

[21:47] tenj: a risk with a lot of new technologies i guess

[21:47] anderss: I think the first servers will be supercomputer centers - the usual suspects, like military, research labs and IBM. Later, the data center companies.

[21:47] Next: i trust no one:]

[21:47] dwangmatig: the virtual you must have enoughj money to have some real people tend the servers...

[21:47] anderss: Maybe we need open source data centers.

[21:47] Arjen: @Next limiting but posibly wise ;-)

[21:47] anderss: Virtual people can make real money.

[21:48] tenj: but virtual money no real people

[21:48] dwangmatig: most money is virtual anyway

[21:48] tenj: lol

[21:48] Arjen: Uplaods might be really good programmers, or stock traders

[21:49] vanVuuren: data center companies could make money with sort of advertising popups in the virtual world... Would be terrible, but it's a idea

[21:49] tenj: pff, what am i as an actor to do then?

[21:49] anderss: Most academic work could be done virtually. Except the coffee drinmking.

[21:49] anderss: Of course, we would drink virtual coffee,

[21:49] Next: it means - who controls the servers - control the entire "virtual" universe? and the speed of your "afterlife" depends on internet cables? or what? how can you travel to space if there is no internet in space? yet.. :] but still interesting

[21:49] anderss: I would pay for an advert free server.

[21:49] Arjen: @Vuuren, I'd install and adblocker

[21:50] anderss: Now people pay a lot for nice houses in good places, in the future it might be high bandwidth servers with security, no ads and friendly sysops.

[21:50] vanVuuren: haha, there have to be lots of laws for this matter :p

[21:50] Arjen: @next you'd want control to be distributed

[21:50] anderss: Just imagine how fun the lawyers will have!

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[21:51] dwangmatig: you wouldn't know that the virtual you ran on a 486 `PC, except when you look 'outside'

[21:51] anderss: I hope there will be a bit of understanding of where we are going before human uploading happens, so laws can start to form. Because otherwise we might get a shock effect when governments and the public get surprised.

[21:51] anderss: "Hmm, why is the news changing so fast?"

[21:51] Arjen: @Dwangm you'd see the end of the universe next week

[21:51] anderss: On a 286 at least.

[21:52] anderss: For long space trips slowing down would be really nice.

[21:52] dwangmatig: yea

[21:52] Arjen: Relativity will also help with that

[21:52] anderss: But it is so hard to accelerate to near lightspeed. It annoys me.

[21:53] titusn: @Vuuren: Of course we all realize that people are hacking into our brain right now with commercials and billboards.

[21:53] dwangmatig: you can just put yourself in a really tiny computer. less mass mpore acceleration

[21:53] Arjen: Need to build wormholes (or warp drive)

[21:53] anderss: True. But it is a kind of hacking we are used to, so we do not get too upset about it.

[21:54] tenj: is there other hacking too

[21:54] tenj: ?

[21:54] anderss: The scary kind of mind hacking is when people figure out really good ways of persuading. perhaps as a side effect of neuroscience and data mining.

[21:54] Arjen: The book Acccelerando by Charles Stross described tiny uploads on a space trip

[21:54] anderss: Yes, small spaceships is the way to go. Fuel requirements are exponential with final speed, but reducing mass reduces them a lot.

[21:54] dwangmatig: @arjen that's what i was thinking about :)

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[21:55] titusn: @Anders: but you were touching an important point here: what about the laws and what about morality? Isn't it selfish to upload yourself?

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[21:55] titusn: Hi BenH!

[21:55] BenH: Evening

[21:55] anderss: I think it is selfish but good to upload oneself. It is not wrong to want to survive.

[21:55] vanVuuren: Memory injection to change opinions would be a powerfull weapon for companies and goverments

[21:55] tenj: can the world endure a limitless amount of stored minds?

[21:55] Arjen: It depends on the resources you consume

[21:55] anderss: The moral questions will be about who can get access to uploading.

[21:56] anderss: I think you can get an amazing number of stored minds into the world without much problems. In fact, it can be quite green.

[21:56] anderss: As an upload I would not need to eat animals or plants, just solar energy and maybe a bit of silicon/carbon/rocks.

[21:56] tenj: won't 'living' humans get endangered?

[21:57] Arjen: If we can get a billion times as myuch computaion for the same amount of energy it would not be a problem

[21:57] Arjen: @tenj we already are

[21:57] anderss: I tyhink there will be plenty of Amish who think it is a good thing the godless crazies became software. Leaves the world for the good Christians.

[21:57] tenj: true ;-)

[21:57] titusn: Unless we all want billions of copies of ourselves. We would still get a scramble for resources...

[21:57] anderss: www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2009/03/a_really_green_and_sustainable_humanity.html

[21:58] dwangmatig: i'm still not convinced it really is possible to run a mind on conventional computers.. btw i need some real booze...

[21:58] anderss: The problem is of course the copies... I think I would copy too much. Another reason to go to space.

[21:58] Next: it would be funny if it becomes kind a new breath for religions:] imagine "reall" afterlife, heaven of christianity. like in "caprica" movie :]

[21:58] anderss: The best way of finding out if we can run minds on them is to try. Philosophical arguments haven't convinced very many.

[21:58] BenH: and then should the copies become individuals in their own right

[21:58] Arjen: @Dwang we won't know for sure until we do it

[21:58] paddy: What happens if the upload takes too much time? Mind can get partially out of sync?

[21:59] dwangmatig: @anderss but how would you even try?

[21:59] anderss: I think my copies should be regarded as individuals. So each copy of me has an equal right to my bank account. That will teach me :-)

[21:59] Arjen: @Paddy could be a real problem. One of the many

[21:59] BenH: The issue with manufacturing 'heaven' is that unless you were editing the individuals thy would know its artifice

[21:59] paddy: I am going to upload my self to a pub right now... thanks for your time and answers ...and the interesting docu

[21:59] anderss: Good process management is important for uploads. Just imagine having your hemispheres being run on different computers that are out of synch

[21:59] anderss: Bye!

[22:00] anderss: But many would be happy in an artificial heaven with enough booze, sex and gold.

[22:00] paddy: Bye... and think about it ;-)

[22:00] paddy: yep sex is needed to mutate minds in the future!!

[22:00] BenH: but it does get boring :)

[22:01] Arjen: Sex never gets boring!

[22:01] dwangmatig: i'm joining paddy. good to chat with you Anders. Seeing your name was a real trip down memory lane. I read your Aleph site when you started it way back! Bye for now...

[22:01] anderss: I think we europeans are a bit too obsessed with authenticity. The Chinese and Japanese have several museums with good replicas of great art, allowing them to get all the best artworks in the same place.

[22:01] anderss: Bye! This was fun.

[22:02] BenH: Drinking the same thing again and again, hell yes boring

[22:02] tenj: some scientist say we already live in parralel universi

[22:02] dwangmatig: one more question: is there a way to read the entire conversation later on?

[22:02] anderss: That is why we need drink inventors.

[22:02] BenH: as chris hitchens once said 'celestial north korea'

[22:02] vanVuuren: Reall life people, thank you for the brainfood, bye bye :)

[22:02] vanVuuren!ewcflash@ewc-b52c8c8c.upc-b.chello.nl has left the chat.

[22:02] anderss: The real heaven is of course open ended, somewhere you can explore and grow forever. Gold, harps and psalm heaven sounds like hell to me.

[22:02] BenH: except mate I've been out drinking with you :P

[22:02] titusn: yes, It has been a great discussion! We will have one last question and then call it a day.

[22:02] Arjen: @Dwang: ctrl a ctr c ctrl v (leave window open)

[22:03] titusn: Of course whoever likes can still stay here

[22:03] titusn: the chat will stay open on the site.

[22:03] dwangmatig: ok thanks. bye

[22:03] dwangmatig!ewcflash@ewc-7713ddec.adsl.wanadoo.nl has left the chat.

[22:03] anderss: Great!

[22:03] titusn: so here is the last question:

[22:03] Arjen: Yes?

[22:03] tenj: when will u be back in holland

[22:04] tenj: ?

[22:04] BenH: please dont do the gameshow anticipation thing

[22:04] anderss: I don't know yet, but I like to come by as often as I can.

[22:04] titusn: from the audience: If you are done as a virtual mind. If you are fed up with life. How do you end it?

[22:04] Arjen: We'll get Anders back over soon after the summer

[22:04] paddy: ciao! (i leave the chat open, but Im gone)

[22:04] titusn: cool!

[22:04] anderss: Oh, that is simple. Just press the quit option on the menu.

[22:04] titusn: Thank you Paddy!

[22:05] anderss: Actually, making sure you are really gone can be done in a lot of ways.

[22:05] Arjen: RM -rf /

[22:05] titusn: But would'nt that be dangerously easy?

[22:05] tenj: indeed

[22:05] anderss: You can stop your currently running process, but save a copy to be started if needed. Or leave more instructions to erase it. Or encrypt it.

[22:05] Arjen: then grind up the storage medium

[22:05] titusn: Would everyone with a suicidal thought quit right away?

[22:05] BenH: so's a straight edge razor :)

[22:06] anderss: Of course, as an upload one could also make the ending stylish. Some fight against a dragon, or sending the hard drive into the sun.

[22:06] Arjen: @Titus, its called evolution. some survice

[22:06] anderss: I think there would be a bit of selection.

[22:06] anderss: It is all about finding meaning in ones life, and reinventing it if it gets stale.

[22:06] titusn: So we would only have stable minds after some nanoseconds! great.

[22:06] BenH: I would also suspect it would be done via forking ones state

[22:06] anderss: I wonder if we would branch off unstable selves.

[22:06] tenj: i would send my hard drive into a black hole

[22:07] anderss: Oh, great minds think alike.

[22:07] BenH: some kind of meta process watching for instability and then forking to ensure that one state of self would continue

[22:07] anderss: One nice thing about virtual suicide is that you can make it temporary. Unless the hard drive goes into the black hole.

[22:07] BenH: and the other now distinct state could end itself

[22:08] Next: when do you think we can "see" the first versions of uploading in near future?

[22:08] Arjen: @Next hard to day, too many variables. Just like fiull AI and fusion energy

[22:09] anderss: I think we will see uploaded simple creatures like snails or insects in the next 10-20 years. After that things will go fast, it is mostly a matter of scaling up scanners and computers.

[22:09] tenj: but maybe it will not kill u but it will reveal its secret

[22:09] Next: and what kind of uploadings?partial, full? who will really work on it?

[22:09] titusn: @Anders: But if you're depressed, you would probably not want 'temporary suicide'

[22:09] anderss: I have a complex statistical simulation, which produces a broad probability distribution from here to the year 2200. With a peak in 2046, the same year as Kurzweil :-)

[22:09] BenH: most of the work is being done anyway in terms of medical scanners

[22:09] Arjen: @Anders I think there are unkown unknowd varaibles, like with most complex innovations

[22:10] anderss: I think the first animal uploads will be very partial. By the time we get to humans they will be fairly good.

[22:10] anderss: Yes, there will be a lot of learnimng. There are unknown unknowns in the brain, that much we know.

[22:10] BenH: granted to continue with MRI's to the resolution needed will result in microwaved brains....

[22:10] titusn: So that concludes our official discussion. I just hear that some of the ideas here will be used in a sci-fi movie by one of the directors listening in ;-)

[22:10] anderss: MRI has problems because of water mobility, cannot fo below 0.5 microns,.

[22:11] tenj: how to determine if a mind is 'sane/fit' enough to be kept 'alive'?

[22:11] anderss: I love being able to give sf ideas!

[22:11] anderss: Sanity is tricky. I think it will be obvious if a mind is working at all, but minor damage may take a long time to show up. The best way is probably a psychiartrist.

[22:12] tenj: i was thinking of the first trial-minds..

[22:12] titusn: A big thank you to Arjen and Anderss and all the other participants in this discussion.

[22:12] Arjen: Most normal people are insane in some way

[22:12] tenj: hihi ;-)

[22:12] anderss: There are some people who want to volunteer. They are a bit crazy.

[22:13] titusn: Feel free to join this room on everywherechat.com or here on this site anytime.

[22:13] tenj: can i sign up?

[22:13] titusn: the name of the room is TRANSHUMAN_live_chat

[22:13] titusn: Yes, you can sign up.

[22:13] anderss: If the scanning is nondestructive it is not much of a problem to try it again. But I think scanning will be destructive the first few decades...

[22:14] titusn: for updates you can join our facebook page or follow @titustweet on twitter

[22:14] anderss: And I guess this website?

[22:14] titusn: and to register your nickname you can click options and "register nickname"

[22:14] tenj: thank you Anderss and Arjan!

[22:14] anderss: Thank you!

[22:14] tenj: bless you

[22:15] titusn: Great you were all here. I will put the chat log online soon.

[22:15] anderss: I actually have to go too - I have a pile of research proposals to finish before midnight.

[22:15] Arjen: Good fun!

[22:15] anderss: Otherwise I will turn into a pumpkin.

[22:15] tenj: lol

[22:15] tenj: i love pumpkinsoup

[22:15] Arjen: My females are requiring attention. Ltr!

[22:15] anderss: Have fun everybody!

[22:16] tenj: bye!

[22:16] tenj!ewcflash@ewc-30873a4c.direct-adsl.nl has left the chat.

[22:16] anderss!ewcflash@ewc-adafe0c2.ox.ac.uk has left the chat.

[22:16] Next: sorry if i'm too naive, but i've read bout russian guys they said they simulate[upload] whole nematode C.Elegans, all the neuro connections etc. i must find link in English

[22:17] BenH: I know who you mean

[22:17] BenH: there's a bit of trickery within the simulation in that alot of the code has been 'generalised'

[22:18] titusn: Goodbye arjen!

[22:18] titusn: Goodbye everybody else.

[22:18] BenH: goodbye

[22:19] titusn: Talk to you all soon I hope. Let's keep in touch via this site.